Free Hosting  

 
Author Topic:   What age puppy to start using E-collar?
Aireedale
Junior Member 

Posts: 5
From: Warren, MI USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-15-2000 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AireedaleReply w/Quote
I know that you good people have probably answered this question here over and over again, but please, can you answer it just one more time? I am very new to this wonderful group and have read so many favorable things about the E-Collar but I do not want to use it on my pup if she is yet too young. Please, if someone can answer my question I would be so grateful.

Thank you all again.

IP: Logged

Sabrina
Member 

Posts: 58
From: Iowa
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-15-2000 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SabrinaReply w/Quote
I've had great success with an e-collar and I started using it on my Doberman when she was 5 months old. 

IP: Logged

Aireedale
Junior Member 

Posts: 5
From: Warren, MI USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-15-2000 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AireedaleReply w/Quote
Sabrina...thank you so much for your help. It greatly relieves my mind in knowing at what age I can start training my pup by using the E-collar. This "little girl" is so precious to me and after reading the posts about the collar being a good training tool for pups that have a high level of stubborness as my girl does, I am happy to know that I can use it on her safely. She is almost 4 months old and I have already started training her in the Sit, Down, and Come commands and she is doing well. The problem she will have as I can see now, is her curiosity might get her in trouble. She investigates everything and ofcourse it goes into her mouth. We do a lot of traveling and stay at campsites and this is where the collar will be extremely helpful in training her to say within the bounderies of the campsite.

IP: Logged

Hayley
Member 

Posts: 72
From: U.K
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-15-2000 03:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HayleyReply w/Quote
Whats an E collar

IP: Logged

dcrave
unregistered 
posted 08-15-2000 04:18 PM Reply w/Quote
Hayley, an e-collar is an electronic shock collar, I picked a bad time to pop in over here. I can't imagine using such a device or method on an animal, especially a young puppy. It's completely unnecessary, there are much better methods out there that don't require you to shock your dog. Only, only, only if you have thoroughly worked with your dog should you even consider such a device and even then I would point to the lack of training! This is sure going to stir a hornet's nest.

IP: Logged

dagny
Member 

Posts: 31
From: Austin, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-15-2000 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dagnyReply w/Quote
wow dcrave! no personal experience, but i've always heard good things about shock collars - isn't it just a mild zap?

IP: Logged

dcrave
unregistered 
posted 08-15-2000 04:50 PM Reply w/Quote
hi amanda & dagny, maybe I'm being too harsh on the people that advocate its use, but I don't think it's necessary except in extreme cases where the dog has thoroughly (over months) been conditioned to a response and then because of instinctive behavior the dog refuses to obey a command, ie. another dog in heat your dog refuses to come after months of work. I was checking on some postings here that I had responded to and couldn't believe that this is being used as a primary method to train a dog and a young puppy at that. Using +R (positive reinforcement) I can teach a pup ANY age and if my timing is off, what's the harm done? Nothing, except the dog learns slower and I learn faster when to appropriately reward the dog. Using an aversive here such as an E collar or other teaches the dog avoidance and fear. This is the reason why after using these type of methods (prong collars and aversives) for over 10 years I made the change and I've found my 4 mo guinea pig of an pup to be responding faster than any of the dogs I trained before (even with a beginner, unexperienced teacher such as myself) When I look back at the problem behaviors I dealt with such as those on this board, I STRONGLY feel it was because of the methods I was using. If you want quick reliable results use learn how to shape the dogs behavior, learn how to use targeting methods. Shelby is learning things so fast right now, she's leaving my past dogs in the dust and I was extremely proud of their performance. I'll try to go back to my home at clickersolutions, but this one I couldn't avoid.

as far as being a mild zap, it depends on the setting, but traditional methods typically state if the aversive method doesn't get the desired results, increase the aversive stimuli 

IP: Logged

agkatz
Administrator 

Posts: 337
From: Torrance, California, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-15-2000 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for agkatzReply w/Quote
HORSE CRAP ALERT! HORSE CRAP ALERT!

Dear discussion board:

The above post (by Dcrave) illustrates the EXACT reason I set up this discussion board. It was to counter the clicker-trainer PROPAGANDA and doggie-biscuit bribery espoused by people like this.

I'm sure she's well-enough intentioned.

But have you ever stopped to wonder why, if her techniques work so FAST, doesn't she take me up on my $10,000 DOG TRAINER CHALLENGE?
http://www.dogproblems.com/challenge.htm

Sure, she'll have you believe that she used traditional methods for 10 YEARS ... and then in the next paragraph, suggest that it's all "fear and avoidance".

Why would someone use ANY TECHNIQUE for 10 years that is based on fear and avoidance? I wouldn't!

Because the truth is: This is HORSE CRAP!

Either she's been doing REALLY STUPID things for 10 years or she's got an ulterior agenda. Like the political agenda of a radical anti-pet activist group. 

Because I don't train using FEAR. Who does? They should be put in jail! And there's not a good trainer worth her salt that I KNOW who trains with fear, either.

In fact, if my techniques were based on FEAR, I can guarantee you that this board would not be anywhere near as popular as it is.

Remember: This is not an issue of "free speech" or "Having an open mind." Or, "What works best for some dogs." It's an issue of THOUGHT CONTROL AND PROPAGANDA. By labelling certain approaches as being based on principles of 'FEAR'... the only logical conclusion is to start banning the tools used by these so-called 'FEAR' TRAINERS. And then start throwing said 'FEAR TRAINERS' in jail.

Because the truth of the matter is that ANY TOOL can be abused. And the way Dcrave has described HER 10 years of dog training with -P (or whatever hokey jargon she wishes to use)... demonstrates that she has no clue as to the proper use of these tools.

Again: Not a personal attack. But if somebody's going to step up and say that knives are inherently dangerous... I'm going to NOT SIT QUIETLY and forget to inform the flock that it is the USER... and not the KNIFE that is dangerous.

- Adam.
Author, Secrets of a Professional Dog Trainer! http://www.dogproblems.com/secretsbook.htm

IP: Logged

agkatz
Administrator 

Posts: 337
From: Torrance, California, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-15-2000 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for agkatzReply w/Quote
In reply to the original question:

While there's nothing inherently wrong with using the e-collar on a puppy this young (as long as you're matching the motivation level to your dog's temperament)... the pup's more than likely still soft enough that a leash correction should be all that you need.

In other words, you're using garden shears to cut gift wrap paper. It'll work, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it... but it's probably not the right tool for what you're doing, at this level in the game.

The primary uses for the e-collar are for:

1.) Proofing the recall exercise (come).
See: http://www.dogproblems.com/come.htm

2.) Extinguishing a behavior where you want the dog to think that it's coming from the object itself. (Trash digging, for example.

3.) Distance work for a more advanced dog. (Drop on recall, for example.)

I would not try to teach a 4 month old dog boundary & perimeter training at a camp site. 

#1: How long are you planning on being at the campsite? Even an advanced dog isn't going to be 100% overnight, with new boundaries. http://www.dogproblems.com/boundary.htm

#2: I think you want your dog to just hang out with you, and stay in the general vicinity. Leave a long line on the dog, and don't take your eyes off him. If you can't do this, then the dog should be confined.

Best regards,
Adam.
Secrets of a Professional Dog Trainer! http://www.dogproblems.com/secretsbook.htm

IP: Logged

Aireedale
Junior Member 

Posts: 5
From: Warren, MI USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-16-2000 08:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AireedaleReply w/Quote
Adam..thank you so much for taking the time out to clarify this issue of the E-collar for me. I will do as you suggest and wait till Abby is older to train her on the collar. In the mean time, leash training her at this point in time is sound advice to me. She is doing really well in the sit, come, and down training sessions that I have with her daily and I do understand that at this young age of 4mos she will be getting into things so patience and correction on my part is the method I will be following. As far as the camping is concerned. We are not planning any more trips this year so this will give me a chance to work closely with her at our nearby park.

Thanks again for all your valuable input on this subject. 

IP: Logged

dcrave
unregistered 
posted 08-16-2000 09:58 AM Reply w/Quote
AGKATZ apparently you know less about my training methods if you call it bribery. I don't advocate using luring and surely if you've worked with dogs any period of time you've shaped a behavior. I did see in some of your training articles you've advocated using cheese to enhance the performance of the dog? It also appears you don't read what's your members post in the notes either. Unless they further clarified their position I would guess anytime the dog does something other than the command it gets a shock. If the command hasn't been properly conditioned then it's not a humane method of treatment. 

I've seen your "challenge" it's ridiculous. And I would only hope your members would see as such. Anyone who has worked with dogs that have been rescued from an animal shelter would tell you that these dogs are going to need patience and time and alot of love. 

FYI the reason I used the methods I did for so long was yes they work on most dogs that will subject themselves to it. And the other dogs who've been breed to work independently and survive on their own sometimes get aggressive and we label those dogs stubborn and independent. Using your own words: "In other words, you're using garden shears to cut gift wrap paper. It'll work, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it... but it's probably not the right tool for what you're doing, at this level in the game. The primary uses for the e-collar are for: 1.) Proofing the recall exercise (come)." I didn't disagree with you on the proofing of the recall except after the behavior has been thoroughly conditioned. 

Why would you not suggest using shaping to train a dog to do things such as "leave it" or "away" When I say leave it, my dog responds as if she's been hit with a jolt of current, yet I never used an aversive to train this. Propaganda no, the truth yes.

By the way it wasn't very nice to delete my id. ;-)

IP: Logged

Rebel's Mom
Member 

Posts: 173
From: Philipsburg, PA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-16-2000 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rebel's MomReply w/Quote
You should not use an electric collar on a dog under 6 months of age. It has been linked to some fear-related behavioral problems, and nerve damage. I am not advocating their use or saying they are bad. But please do not put them on a puppy. An e-collar should be a last resort when ALL else fails.

IP: Logged

agkatz
Administrator 

Posts: 337
From: Torrance, California, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-16-2000 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for agkatzReply w/Quote
Rebel...

Where do you get this stuff?

Jim Dobbs has been using the e-collar on pups for years. And he's produced several field dog champions. (Or coached several).

But the issue is KNOWING how to use this tool properly. Like any tool.

Yes... misuse can cause damage. But if I take that clicker device and shove it up the dog's nose, that'll cause nerve damage too.

The issue is use vs. misues.

-Adam.
Secrets of a Professional Dog Trainer! http://www.dogproblems.com/secretsbook.htm

IP: Logged

Max&Misha
Member 

Posts: 34
From: CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 08-16-2000 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Max&MishaReply w/Quote
Aireedale - I take my dogs camping, boating, etc. all the time and found that the most important thing was to off-leash train them totally before we started letting them off-leash while camping. Since I've been around dogs all my life use the "choke / slip" chain for training as until on this board had never heard of the prong / pinch collar which seems to work very effectively for a lot of people. .. in fact several of my friends whom I now have reading this board have become recent converts to the "prong / pinch" collar for their larger dogs. Before my newest dog was totally off-leashed trained (I horseback ride, hike, etc., so they're off-leash quite a bit but never go further than a few feet away and come immediately on command) I kept him on a long leash (30 footer) swhen camping o he got the feeling he could wander, but I had conrol of him if he didn't immediately respond. I found that even though camping is quite exciting for them that if from the very beginning I make them mind me just like we were at home it makes for a more fun, comfortable trip. Like I said if your dog is well trained, it should be well trained no matter where you are or what you're doing. A hint - even though all my dogs have been trained on and off-leash if we're sleeping outside I use a tie-out at night since I once woke up and one of my dogs was following a bear up the mountain, he came back when I called, but don't know where he would have ended up if I hadn't woken up -  To me camping and dogs are one of the greatest sources of fun you can have!

IP: Logged

ssorca19
Junior Member 

Posts: 13
From: Pelham, NH USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-16-2000 11:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ssorca19Reply w/Quote
Wow- i was very surprised when i first read the question about how to train with an e collar. I had never heard of using a e collar for training. The reason for this is I work in an animal hospital, and when we talk about e collars, we mean Elizabethan collars- ya know the lamp shade things. The only thing ive heard of these things training for is not chewing, although it's usually so the dog cant chew on itself. Well anyway, after reading your posts, I felt like a big dope, and thought everyone might like to know that. At least now i know something new about "e collars". Thanks

IP: Logged

Retrievrfevr
Member 

Posts: 59
From: 
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 08-17-2000 01:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RetrievrfevrReply w/Quote
Thank you Adam!!! I enjoy this site because of it's practical applications. If I want to learn more about clicker training I know where to go. I love prong collars and e-collars and I do not consider myself abusive to my dogs. I use these tools fairly and my dogs and my student's dogs have more freedom as a result. I too have seen the Dobbs use e-collars on pups at 3 1/2 to 4 months of age with amazing results. No fear or pain on the dog's part at all and certainly no "nerve" damage. People can train their dog anyway they wish, it is after all a free country but I (and this is not bragging just a statement) have 4 dogs and I don't have any problems per say. I am always trying to get a straighter front or finish or faster weaves but as far as behavior problems ...I don't have them. I love my dogs but treat them like dogs. It is easier for me to think like a dog than them to ever think like a person. When we treat them as such then we set them up to be spoiled, dominant, 

aggressive, out of control animals and that to me is the cruelest thing we could do. 

Boy, that was a tangent huh? But I see us tying to be too civilized with our dogs and the dogs are suffering. I think the people remember the "spitting" in the food from Adam's book because it is the least confrontational thing they have to do to the dog. They don't perceive it as "mean" the way they do other steps he advocates. Sorry, I won't try to write this late again. I am off to go get a new Samoyed puppy in California tomorrow and I can almost guarantee that she will be trained with a prong collar at some point and also taught a trained retrieve. Thanks again Adam. 

IP: Logged

Rebel's Mom
Member 

Posts: 173
From: Philipsburg, PA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-17-2000 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rebel's MomReply w/Quote
I have seen the affects of putting an e-collar on a small puppy. I have seen them terrified to move because of fear of everything from that grass to the person. Often, puppies will associate the shock with whatever they are doing at the time, such as sniffing the grass. I think that electric collars can be used properly, I just don't think they should be used on a puppy under 6 months. I think that there are a lot of other ways to do it. I have never used a clicker, so I don't know about that stuff, so I don't know why you commented about that.

I personally believe that with a really young puppy, you can teach without the use of shock. I personally save the e-collars as a last resort, when all else fails. There is a difference when teaching dogs for hunting trials, but I really don't think that is what Aireedale is planning to do.

IP: Logged

Boo
Member 

Posts: 32
From: U.P. of Michigan
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 08-17-2000 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BooReply w/Quote
ssorca19

You're not a big dope!  The elizabethen collar IS commonly referred to as an e-collar as well.

IP: Logged

dcrave2
Junior Member 

Posts: 2
From: 
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-17-2000 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dcrave2Reply w/Quote
AGKATZ why would you put a clicker up a dog's nose?

Positive reinforcement doesn't require the use of a clicker when training a dog or any animal. It only requires some distinct sound to signal "that's what I want" instead of using a e collar to signal "that's not what I want" Why use the garden shears to cut the wrapping paper if I can use something else until I need to use the garden shears.

Why do you keep deleting my id, what are you afraid of? Seems to me propaganda would be when try and crush out any views that don't agree with yours. 

IP: Logged

dcrave2
Junior Member 

Posts: 2
From: 
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-17-2000 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dcrave2Reply w/Quote
Here's a fascinating site that explains positive reinforcement in great detail. This is available freely on the web from Busch Gardens and describes how they train their killer whales. http://www.seaworld.org/animal_training/atlearn.html

IP: Logged